ESS Shakuhachi Forum Forum Index ESS Shakuhachi Forum
Practice, Culture and History of Japanese Bamboo Flute 尺八. A Project of the European Shakuhachi Society (ESS)
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

What do you know about Tamuke?
Goto page: 1, 2  >
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ESS Shakuhachi Forum Forum Index -> ESS Forums -> The Teahouse
Previous topic :: Next topic  
Author Message
Kiku Day
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 866
Localisation: Nr Snede, DK/London UK

PostPosted: 2013-08-21, 10:20    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke? Reply with quote

PublicitéSupprimer les publicités ?
Hi there

I am going to write an article about Tamuke and wanted to ask you guy out there what you know about it?
Not the usual "this is a requiem" thing... but what do you know about about its background? Where did it come from? etc
If you do come with something I will quote, I will of course write from whom the information is. Smile
Back to top
Visit poster’s website Skype
Kishi Kiyokazu
Professional Member

Offline

Joined: 20 Jun 2013
Posts: 42
Localisation: japan

PostPosted: 2013-08-22, 17:31    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke? Reply with quote

Hi, Kiku-san.
Tamuke is a famous shakuhachi piece and Wadadumi-Doso's performance is excellent. I love it.
It is perhaps fault that Tamuke is related to requiem.
I am a Kinko-ryu player and teacher , so I'm not good at Wadadumi-doso style.
But I would like to show two article for you.
First: from liner-note of Wadadumi-douso's CD including Tamuke.
(UDC-499 universal music K.K. made in Japan Mono prined 1968 (Polydor)
title:WATAZUMIDO HOTCHIKU 海童道 法竹
" 「手向」は、その発祥地の気分にふさわしく、大和路の趣をしのばせる曲で、客観的な曲として、人々に親しまれている。法竹は二尺五寸五分の長さが用いられている。”
:translated in English by my poor English
"Tamuke is suitable for its origin region atmosphere where Yamato-ji(ancient roads of Nara prefecture) is suggest its ancient period.
Tamuke is objective music piece and very popular for many people.
This peice was played by 2 shau 5 sun 5bu.(about 77cm)

Second: book :『普化宗史』(高橋空山 著)昭和54年発行 p304
[History of Fuke-sect]Takahasi Kuzan (author)printed in 1979, p304
”明暗寺末 普済寺伝
 普済寺は、今の三重県鈴鹿市打越にあったが、この寺系の曲には、南朝系の楠氏に関わる曲があることが、特色をなしている。
 (1) (省略)
 (2)手向    普済寺伝
 この曲は、誠に名曲であると、されている。調は、黄鐘調である。
:translated :
branch-temple of Meian-ji having been handed down in Fusaiji
Fusaiji had been in Uchikoshi of Suzuka-city in Mie prefecture.
This temple's kousou-peices is related to Kusunoki-clan that had been helping southern dyasty in early Muromachi period.
(1) omitted
(2) Tamuke Fusaiji being handed down
They say this piece is very excellent music. It's basic tonic is A tone.
I hope this report will help you, Kiku-san.
Sincerely,
Kishi Kiyokazu (Japan)
_________________
I run Shakuhachi-playing-study-group(尺八吹奏研究会). I have been studying the shakuhachi and published a text book [尺八吹奏法Ⅱ]. I wish to share with pleasure of playing the shakuhachi with all of the ESS members.
Back to top
Visit poster’s website
Kiku Day
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 866
Localisation: Nr Snede, DK/London UK

PostPosted: 2013-08-25, 08:04    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke? Reply with quote

Hello Kiyoshi

Thanks a lot for the info. That is of great help!

What do you mean by:
It is perhaps fault that Tamuke is related to requiem.

That this is not correct? First of all, saying Tamuke IS a requiem, I think is a mistake. Requiem is a musical genre within Western classical music... so for me Tamuke is NOT a requiem but something that can be compared with a requiem as the use of Tamuke today is close to the use of a requiem. But anyway, that is just a question of the use of terms.

I also want to dig into if this use is something that goes back to the Edo period.. or not. Smile Scope for some dwelling into old writings etc. Fun!
Back to top
Visit poster’s website Skype
Eugene
Member

Offline

Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Posts: 69
Localisation: Singapore

PostPosted: 2013-08-25, 08:40    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke? Reply with quote

Kiku Day wrote:
First of all, saying Tamuke IS a requiem, I think is a mistake. Requiem is a musical genre within Western classical music... so for me Tamuke is NOT a requiem but something that can be compared with a requiem as the use of Tamuke today is close to the use of a requiem.

From what I understand, the genre of requiem music was originally liturgical music for Requiem Masses. As a Catholic in this day and age though, the music that I sing at Requiem Masses range from those in that genre, to more modern music that nonetheless serves the same purpose. However, the fact that the modern music pieces are used for the same purpose makes them, liturgically, requiem music, though they still do not belong to that genre. Not all pieces of music in the genre of requiem music are actually requiem pieces, since some of them may have been composed for performance rather than liturgy.

I think we have the same case here with Tamuke: it is not a mistake to say that Tamuke is a requiem piece since it is used for that purpose (though not in a Catholic liturgical context). However, it would be a mistake to say that Tamuke is a piece from the genre of requiem music.
Back to top
Visit poster’s website
Kiku Day
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 866
Localisation: Nr Snede, DK/London UK

PostPosted: 2013-08-25, 17:38    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke? Reply with quote

That is certainly a valid viewpoint! But as the music you mention are all at least in the Western classical genre - whether modern or not - I still will not be able to call Tamuke a requiem myself. But point taken! Okay
Back to top
Visit poster’s website Skype
Lawrence Huff
Member

Offline

Joined: 01 Apr 2013
Posts: 16
Localisation: Chiba-ken, Japan

PostPosted: 2013-08-25, 19:22    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke? Reply with quote

Hi Kiku,

Why don't you get in touch with direct descendants of Watazumido, via Yokoyama-sensei's linkage. You know these people and they're approachable. You can start with Riley Lee-sensei, a member of this forum.
Back to top
Kiku Day
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 866
Localisation: Nr Snede, DK/London UK

PostPosted: 2013-08-25, 23:14    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke? Reply with quote

I would like to go beyond Watazumi.... Smile But thank you for your tip! Okay
Back to top
Visit poster’s website Skype
Lawrence Huff
Member

Offline

Joined: 01 Apr 2013
Posts: 16
Localisation: Chiba-ken, Japan

PostPosted: 2013-08-25, 23:36    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke? Reply with quote

Then you must find some old guys.
Back to top
Perry Yung
Professional Member

Offline

Joined: 22 Mar 2011
Posts: 346
Localisation: New York City, UWS

PostPosted: 2013-08-26, 00:17    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke? Reply with quote

Lawrence Huff wrote:
Then you must find some old guys.


Kiku, I'm not that old but maybe this can shed some light. I played this piece for a Chinese person a few years back, he looked at the Kanji and said, "Hands Folded in Prayer". That's how it reads to a Chinese person.
_________________
"A hot Dog is not an animal" - Jet Yung
Blog on shakuhachi, art and parenting - www.yungflutes.com
Back to top
Visit poster’s website
Kiku Day
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 866
Localisation: Nr Snede, DK/London UK

PostPosted: 2013-08-26, 16:16    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke? Reply with quote

That is certainly what it reads literally in Japanese also. Or both in Chinese and Japanese ta = 手 = hand. muke = 向 = to face something or each other. So it means literally hands in prayer position yes.

And talking to people are not the only was of researching. You can read documents. There are scores from before Watazumi's version. That would tell a lot. I have to get my hands on some Fusaiji temple score or from somebody who learned from there..... Right now I am just not in the right place as I am teaching at the Prague Shakuhachi festival. But later... Smile It would be interesting to see if I can find writings of the same "requiem"-use before Watazumi for example. And as the same thread on Facebook has discussed, when did the Itsuki no komoriuta kome into Tamuke?

Great stuff to look into!
Back to top
Visit poster’s website Skype
Lorka
Member

Offline

Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 43
Localisation: Canada

PostPosted: 2013-08-26, 19:48    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke? Reply with quote

Do keep us posted Kiku, as this is an interesting topic. I would be interested to hear about the origins of the piece, along with any meaningful changes/alterations. Different notations can also lead to these things I imagine. The version that I have studied with Michael Gould (my mighty-bearded teacher), is what he studied under Yokoyama, but I have seen/heard different variations, including different ways of doing key phrases within the piece. Anyway, very interesting stuff to bring up Kiku.
Back to top
Kiku Day
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 866
Localisation: Nr Snede, DK/London UK

PostPosted: 2013-08-27, 19:42    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke? Reply with quote

Mitsuhashi Kifu promised to send me a copy of Okamoto Chikugai's version of tamuke, which apparently is a version(although in Okamoto's hand) that predates the Watazumi version that we know so well. And this one does not have Itsuki no komoriuta phrase in it. I am looking very much forward to see it!
Back to top
Visit poster’s website Skype
Lawrence Huff
Member

Offline

Joined: 01 Apr 2013
Posts: 16
Localisation: Chiba-ken, Japan

PostPosted: 2013-08-28, 05:59    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke? Reply with quote

Hi Kiku-sama,

Can you post it, after you receive it?
Back to top
Lorka
Member

Offline

Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 43
Localisation: Canada

PostPosted: 2013-08-28, 15:57    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke? Reply with quote

Seconded. I would also be curious to see (and if possible hear) it. It's funny you mention Kifu. It was listening to his double CD (on a whim) at the McGill music library that made me say, 'damn, what is this thing, I want to play this'
Back to top
No-sword
Member

Offline

Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 21
Localisation: Kanagawa

PostPosted: 2013-08-28, 17:33    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke? Reply with quote

I have a few old versions in facsimile.

1) In 對山譜拾遺池田壽山集, a version of Tamuke received from Okamoto Chikugai appears twice. One is on pp139-140. It has the note "三重県白子町普済寺曲 昭和丗二年岡本竹外氏より伝來" ("Piece from Fusaiji Temple in Shirako-cho, Mie prefecture. Received from Mr. Okamoto Chikugai 1957 (= Showa 32)". The other version is on pp158-159 and has a similar note: 三重県白子町普済寺 昭和三十二年一月岡本竹外氏より伝來 ("Piece from Fusaiji Temple in Shirako-cho, Mie prefecture. Received from Mr Okamoto Chikugai August 1957 (= Showa 32)". I haven't done an exhaustive comparison but they look pretty similar, and neither has the Itsuki no Komoriuta passage, if we are talking about the "ro-re-chi-rimeri-ro-re" part towards the end.

2) In 山上月山蒐集尺八譜 奥州編・九州編, on pp148-149, there's a version of Tamuke with the note "海童普門より" that is "From Watazumi Fumon". There's also a note that looks like "(5-15-8- )" or "(S-15-8- )", which maybe means August 1940 (Showa 15)? This version also doesn't have the "ro-re-chi-rimeri-ro-re" part!

Unfortunately I don't have either of these in digital form but maybe someone else does...

The word "Tamuke" is very interesting -- it appears in the Man'yoshu so it is extremely old. Originally it meant an offering to higher powers, especially those in charge of the roads you were about to travel on, especially at the top of a mountain ("tamuke" is also the ancestor of the modern Japanese word "toge", meaning "mountain pass"). It is so old that we have no real insight into how it formed -- for example the "ta" may not refer to hands at all, but may be related to the /taw/ morpheme that has to do with bending, curving, peaks and valleys, etc. [Edit: Just to be clear, by the time that the komuso appeared, the word already had the meaning of "prayer for the dead" as well. So what the word originally meant isn't relevant to the interpretation of the song -- it's just intriguing trivia.]
Back to top
Visit poster’s website
Contenu Sponsorisé






PostPosted: Today at 11:12    Post subject: What do you know about Tamuke?

Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ESS Shakuhachi Forum Forum Index -> ESS Forums -> The Teahouse All times are GMT + 2 Hours
Goto page: 1, 2  >
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  

Index | Create a free forum | Free support forum | Free forums directory | Report a violation | Conditions générales d'utilisation
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2017 phpBB Group