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Nayashi
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Janpanam
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PostPosted: 2014-01-06, 17:40    Post subject: Nayashi Reply with quote

PublicitéSupprimer les publicités ?
Happy new year everybody.


Last edited by Janpanam on 2015-09-20, 17:04; edited 1 time in total
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Kiku Day
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PostPosted: 2014-01-06, 18:21    Post subject: Nayashi Reply with quote

This is very symptomatic for the world of shakuhachi. Nothing is basically cut in stone. Both Blasdel and Gutzwiller are kinko players - but while the former is from Chikumeisha school the latter is from Chikuyūsha school.
I have also noticed that nayashi can mean something very different according to school - but mostly raising pitch - as they both write. I have though seen some places where nayashi is explained as something closer to a furi (a nod with the head causing the note to fall and back up again).

So the explanation is that these expert players explain nayashi as it is in their respective schools.
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LowBlow
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PostPosted: 2014-01-06, 20:45    Post subject: Nayashi Reply with quote

It is different from school to school. I have learned it the other way round. As Kiku mentioned going down in pitch and back up. As described by Yoshinobu Taniguchi in "How to play the Shakuhachi". He also writes Nayasu or Nayashi as the same.
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Kiku Day
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PostPosted: 2014-01-07, 10:22    Post subject: Nayashi Reply with quote

Yes, it is interesting how different it can be.
Nayasu is the verb - so meaning doing it
Nayashi is the subject.
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Janpanam
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PostPosted: 2014-01-10, 21:06    Post subject: Nayashi Reply with quote

Thank you

Last edited by Janpanam on 2015-09-20, 17:04; edited 1 time in total
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LowBlow
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PostPosted: 2014-01-11, 09:21    Post subject: Nayashi Reply with quote

If you want to make a dictionary, you should note the other schools which are going down in pitch as well. Like KSK or Chikuho.
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Janpanam
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PostPosted: 2014-01-15, 14:38    Post subject: Nayashi Reply with quote

How is this:

Last edited by Janpanam on 2015-09-20, 17:05; edited 1 time in total
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Lorka
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PostPosted: 2014-01-15, 19:23    Post subject: Nayashi Reply with quote

I think Lowblow is correct. If you do not include other definitions, then you will sow confusion. Most definitions I have heard (and the one I have been taught) is going down, or starting below pitch, then raising up to it. In other words, the total opposite of what Japanam is suggesting. The effect would also be quite different. With the nyashi as I have described it, there is a rising sensation, or coming up to pitch. The nyashi you are describing Japanam would have a sinking, or falling feeling to it, as you raise pitch then drop down to normal. It's all terribly interesting, but the two seem to be quite opposite in all respects. At least as I see it.
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LowBlow
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PostPosted: 2014-01-15, 20:50    Post subject: Nayashi Reply with quote

How many are "mostly"? Did you count what school is doing what? Or teachers? Or players? To stay clear, name the schools and how they play the Nayashi. Everything else adds to the confusion.
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Justin Senryu
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PostPosted: 2014-02-04, 23:44    Post subject: Nayashi Reply with quote

Janpanam wrote:
So I stay with: A raise in pitch. Details are depending on the school ( or sub-school ) which is
involved.

Thank you

( I'm pretty sure the answer to the question:
"Are the Chikumeisha and Chikuyūsha schools the only Kinko schools?"
is "no" . So, no further questions )


Hi Janpanam,
Nayashi is not really a raise in pitch, it fundamentally refers to a lowering of the pitch, and then a return to the (original) pitch. Kinko Ryu has evolved over time - nowadays people habitually put a breath before a nayashi. In the past this was not the case. With the breath there, it makes it seem that you are raising the pitch, because you start at the bottom. What you are actually doing is starting the nayashi at a pitch below the previous note, whether or not you take a breath. Thus, it is a lowering of the pitch, followed by a raising of the pitch.

Regarding the old honkyoku schools: in Kinko Ryu, that raising of the pitch is gradual; in Kimpu Ryu it is sudden; in Shimpo Ryu it is rather more complex.
Regarding pitch, in Kimpu Ryu it is a whole tone; in Kinko Ryu, in Araki Ha it is a whole tone, and from my understanding and research, this was the older way and the intended way. In the Chikumeisha branch of Kinko Ryu it does seem to be less than that, perhaps a semitone as has been said above.

Best wishes,
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LowBlow
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PostPosted: 2014-02-05, 10:33    Post subject: Nayashi Reply with quote

Hi Justin,

Justin Senryu wrote:
nowadays people habitually put a breath before a nayashi.


I did not understand this part. This will ruin every phrase with a nayashi in it. If we talk about the same thing. When a nayashi is writen direct behind the note or within a row of notes for accentuation people breath?
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kongwee
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PostPosted: 2014-02-05, 15:20    Post subject: Nayashi Reply with quote

^ I take a breath before nayashi. Shocked
That I learn from DVD.
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Justin Senryu
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PostPosted: 2014-02-05, 19:20    Post subject: Nayashi Reply with quote

LowBlow wrote:
Hi Justin,

Justin Senryu wrote:
nowadays people habitually put a breath before a nayashi.


I did not understand this part. This will ruin every phrase with a nayashi in it. If we talk about the same thing. When a nayashi is writen direct behind the note or within a row of notes for accentuation people breath?


Hi LowBlow,
Do you study Kinko Ryu honkyoku? I was specifically talking about Kinko Ryu when making that statement. In this context, whether the phrase is 'ruined' or not depends on how you feel about it. Most Kinko Ryu players would not consider it ruined, because that is how they learned it, and so they feel it is 'correct'. And so, for their schools, it is correct, not ruined. Certainly it is different than not taking the breath. So perhaps we can call it 'changed', rather than 'ruined'. This is a part of the slowing down process of the Kinko Ryu honkyoku over time. They used to be played a lot faster. Actually so did most, if not all of the honkyoku. I can see this clearly at least in Kinko Ryu, Seien Ryu, Shimpo Ryu/Kichiku Ryu, Kimpu Ryu (aka Nezasa Ha), and Oshu Kei. That covers almost all the extant ancient honkyoku. Kyushu is a little more mysterious as we have fewer old sources so it is more difficult to trace - but it is anyhow clear there is this overall trend, and adding breaths before nayashi in Kinko Ryu is a part of that trend.
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Justin Senryu
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PostPosted: 2014-02-05, 19:25    Post subject: Nayashi Reply with quote

Just to be clear, some people think that Chikushinkai (in the West often known as KSK) is Kinko Ryu, so to save confusion I will say a few words about that. While Chikushinkai generally identifies itself as Kinko Ryu, Chikushinkai honkyoku are not in fact Kinko Ryu honkyoku, all except for 2 pieces, which are anyway played in an unorthodox way. In terms of style, it is therefore simpler and less confusing, to consider Chikushinkai as a separate school. So the above does not apply to Chikushinkai nayashi, which is a separate issue.
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mukaiji
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PostPosted: 2014-02-06, 00:21    Post subject: Nayashi Reply with quote

Re:Nayashi

http://www.kotodama.net/shakuhachi/tips.html

Look under year 2003, October and November For Shakuhachi master Kakizaki's comments on Nayashi as well as several years worth of other tips.
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PostPosted: Today at 20:53    Post subject: Nayashi

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