ESS Shakuhachi Forum Forum Index ESS Shakuhachi Forum
Practice, Culture and History of Japanese Bamboo Flute 尺八. A Project of the European Shakuhachi Society (ESS)
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Seien Ryu and Kimpu Ryu

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ESS Shakuhachi Forum Forum Index -> ESS Forums -> The Teahouse
Previous topic :: Next topic  
Author Message
Justin Senryu
Professional Member

Offline

Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 43
Localisation: London

PostPosted: 2014-04-21, 15:18    Post subject: Seien Ryu and Kimpu Ryu Reply with quote

PublicitéSupprimer les publicités ?
Hi everyone,
I was looking at the ESS website, and notice there is a page about 'schools'. http://shakuhachisociety.eu/shakuhachi-histories/schools-styles/
One 14 schools mentioned says "Myoan Schools". Under that section, among others there is Kimpu Ryu and Seien Ryu. These schools are actually nothing to do with the Myoan temple nor Myoan school. They are independent schools. Could whoever is doing the website have them changed to independent schools, rather than as sub-schools of Myoan? If you want more information about this I am happy to provide it. These are the main schools which I teach.

I also notice that at 14 schools, it might get confusing. One possible alternative could be to have 2 sections, one for historic schools such as Kinko, Seien, Kimpu, Tozan etc. and another section for contemporary schools such as Hiriji-kai, Jikisho-ryu and so on. It might get hard to differentiate 20th century schools, but one way could be to say if the school's founder is still living, put it in the contemporary section. So Chikuho Ryu for example would be 'historic' whereas Jikisho-ryu would be 'contemporary'.
_________________
Justin Senryu
http://senryushakuhachi.com/
Back to top
Visit poster’s website
Kiku Day
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 865
Localisation: Nr Snede, DK/London UK

PostPosted: 2014-04-21, 15:22    Post subject: Seien Ryu and Kimpu Ryu Reply with quote

Thank you for your suggestions, Justin.
We have just started making the website and it still lacks loads of things, clarification etc. Still lots of work to do indeed!
We will take note of your suggestions of how to classify. Okay
Back to top
Visit poster’s website Skype
Brian Tairaku Ritchie
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 635
Localisation: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

PostPosted: 2014-04-22, 00:09    Post subject: Seien Ryu and Kimpu Ryu Reply with quote

Some people divide shakuhachi into three main branches. Kinko, Tozan and the catch-all phrase Myoan which means music that doesn't belong to those other two and is mainly temple/religious/meditation based. Some of the other ryu you mention seem to be based on musical concepts, others on exclusivity and commercialism.
Back to top
Brian Tairaku Ritchie
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 635
Localisation: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

PostPosted: 2014-04-22, 00:20    Post subject: Seien Ryu and Kimpu Ryu Reply with quote

Justin, I just looked at the page you're referring to and it brought a few thoughts to mind. Are things like Zensabo, KHK, Tajima's and Fukuda's really ryu? Seems more like they are spinoffs of ryu. Seems like a main part KSK is that they carry on the Dokyoku torch. Tajima plays the same stuff as KSK. But here they're listed as three separate entities. There are probably hundreds of other ryu if anyone who has the chutzpah to name their own dojo a ryu. I don't think Kurahashi would claim Mujuan is a ryu. He always says it's Jin Nyodo. As an individual he also has studied other things and incorporated them. So some of these might be sub-sects or whatever and a lesser amount ryu. Maybe you need to make a proposal for the next WSF to convene a tribunal to determine which are ryu, which are ha and which are hahahahahahahahah NOT ryu.
Back to top
Kiku Day
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 865
Localisation: Nr Snede, DK/London UK

PostPosted: 2014-04-22, 07:24    Post subject: Seien Ryu and Kimpu Ryu Reply with quote

There is absolutely something ambiguous about ryūand ha and when is it a ryū and when is it not. There is absolutely nothing fixed at this point. It is rather a matter of having enough followers and having passed enough time.
I hope to have time during summer to clean up that page. Smile
Back to top
Visit poster’s website Skype
Justin Senryu
Professional Member

Offline

Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 43
Localisation: London

PostPosted: 2014-04-22, 14:34    Post subject: Seien Ryu and Kimpu Ryu Reply with quote

Hi Kiku and Brian,
Thanks for your comments.

[quote="Brian Tairaku Ritchie"]Justin, I just looked at the page you're referring to and it brought a few thoughts to mind. Are things like Zensabo, KHK, Tajima's and Fukuda's really ryu? Seems more like they are spinoffs of ryu. [....]

Actually I think they made a good choice by titling that page 'Schools-Styles'. And while some of the schools-styles on the page are called 'ryu', I think that is fine. If someone names their school a 'ryu', I think that's fine, and I don't think it is up to the ESS to dispute that. So personally I do not see a problem with the naming of the schools. But, I think it is weird to have so many schools there, some of which are simply one individual's school, and then to have historic schools which date back over 100 years put merely as a 'sub-school', hidden as a subsection of a school.


Brian Tairaku Ritchie wrote:
Some people divide shakuhachi into three main branches. Kinko, Tozan and the catch-all phrase Myoan which means music that doesn't belong to those other two and is mainly temple/religious/meditation based. Some of the other ryu you mention seem to be based on musical concepts, others on exclusivity and commercialism.


On this basis there could be 4 categories:
-Kinko
-Tozan
-Myoan
-Other

I think that is not a bad start, except the Myoan category I would say is incorrect.

The thing is, there are very few Seien Ryu players, and similarly very few Kimpu Ryu players. So perhaps people get away with calling them Myoan simply because they are not involved with the conversation! For example I believe I may be the only teacher of Seien Ryu outside of Japan, and indeed there are almost no players of Seien Ryu anywhere outside of Nagoya and the surrounding area. Kimpu Ryu also has very few players, up in Aomori and a few others dotted around, although there are quite a few in other schools who play a few Kimpu Ryu pieces. In fact in might be due to some Myoan players adopting some Kimpu pieces that they might consider them Myoan?!

But the Seien Ryu repertoire comes from Fudaiji temple, which was a branch monastery of Ichigetsuji temple in Edo, so it is actually much more closely related or connected to Kinko Ryu than to the Myoan temple of Kyoto.
Also Kimpu Ryu was connected to the Edo temples, not to Kyoto, and had various official connections to Kinko Ryu. So while neither of these schools can be considered part of Kinko Ryu, far less so could they be considered Myoan.

In Echigo there was in fact another temple named Myoanji. So while this was not the same temple as the temple in Kyoto of the same name, that is a reason why the Echigo pieces can be rightly considered 'Myoan', albeit a different Myoan!

Things get more complicated when it comes to Oshu and Kyushu since there are no schools which continued these repertoires on their own which have survived until today. Instead the remaining pieces were absorbed into the repertoires of other schools. So the main ancient schools whose styles continued as distinct schools at least until 20th century were Kimpu, Kinko, Seien, and Myoan Shimpo.

So one way of giving major categories for the ESS page I could suggest would be as follows:
-Kimpu
-Kinko
-Seien
-Myoan Shimpo (no-one teaches this exclusively anymore but could include schools which include it, such as Chikuho-ryu, Otsubo Shido, my own school etc.)
-Myoan Taizan
-Tozan
-Other

This might not be the perfect solution, and gives preference to the historically established schools, putting all the more recent additions to 'Other'. Some schools are very well established such as Yokoyama's school with dozens of teachers, while some others may have only one teacher. So putting them all under 'other' might not seem fair perhaps. But it might be a way to make the page more accessible and user-friendly. In fact, some schools such as Tozan, Kinko and Seien also have many teachers and sub-schools (since the ESS seems to be including teachers in Japan, not just in Europe), which would all be subsections under their main school's section, so in this respect it does seem quite a fair idea.

If you would like more information on the different historic styles and schools, my site may help:
http://senryushakuhachi.com/regional-honkyoku-styles
_________________
Justin Senryu
http://senryushakuhachi.com/
Back to top
Visit poster’s website
Kiku Day
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 865
Localisation: Nr Snede, DK/London UK

PostPosted: 2014-04-24, 16:17    Post subject: Seien Ryu and Kimpu Ryu Reply with quote

Thank you for your suggestions.
At one point in not too far future, the shakuhachi Ph.Ds of the ESS are supposed to meet and clarify quite a few points like this one you raise on our website. Smile
Back to top
Visit poster’s website Skype
Contenu Sponsorisé






PostPosted: Today at 13:51    Post subject: Seien Ryu and Kimpu Ryu

Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ESS Shakuhachi Forum Forum Index -> ESS Forums -> The Teahouse All times are GMT + 2 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  

Index | Create a free forum | Free support forum | Free forums directory | Report a violation | Conditions générales d'utilisation
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2017 phpBB Group