ESS Shakuhachi Forum Forum Index ESS Shakuhachi Forum
Practice, Culture and History of Japanese Bamboo Flute 尺八. A Project of the European Shakuhachi Society (ESS)
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing
Goto page: <  1, 2, 3, 4, 510, 11, 12  >
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ESS Shakuhachi Forum Forum Index -> ESS Forums -> The Playpen
Previous topic :: Next topic  
Author Message
Brian Tairaku Ritchie
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 635
Localisation: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

PostPosted: 2011-05-15, 14:13    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing Reply with quote

PublicitéSupprimer les publicités ?
I don't think most people who suggest getting a teacher are doing that to put down those who don't (although that may sometimes be the case). They're offering friendly advice. But blowing shakuhachi or any flute has so many great qualities that it's in the category of biking or yoga. Not everybody has to be Lance Armstrong or Iyengar to get something out of it. Just blowing is enough sometimes.
Back to top
Perry Yung
Professional Member

Offline

Joined: 22 Mar 2011
Posts: 346
Localisation: New York City, UWS

PostPosted: 2011-05-15, 15:14    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing Reply with quote

GoStrangely wrote:


In conclusion I am simply asking that if someone says that a teacher is not an option please accept that at face value.

Paul


Hi Paul, Good to see you here.
A woman recently phoned me and asked if I knew of a teacher who taught zen shakuhachi. I asked her what she meant specifically. She said something like, "Well, I've been studying with so and so and he keeps making me play music. I'm a retired professional oboe player, I don't want to study music anymore". I basically said that finding a teacher who can guide her properly will be very difficult. Perhaps, for now, she can think about her Zen practice and how to use the shakuhachi to enhance it...perhaps she could play a little before sitting zazen or a little after. Then she said, "What about just playing long tones? That feels good to me." I said, "Well, if it feels good, keep doing it." Confused

Brian Tairaku Ritchie wrote:
Not everybody has to be Lance Armstrong or Iyengar to get something out of it. Just blowing is enough sometimes.


Enjoy your flutes Paul!
Namaste, Perry
_________________
"A hot Dog is not an animal" - Jet Yung
Blog on shakuhachi, art and parenting - www.yungflutes.com
Back to top
Visit poster’s website
GoStrangely
Member

Offline

Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 21
Localisation: Glasgow

PostPosted: 2011-05-15, 18:34    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing Reply with quote

Thank you Brian and Perry

I think what you written expresses well what I am trying to say, I have always found it hard to believe that all the Komuso were expert accomplished players, I'm sure they had their share of the equivalent of some of today's buskers, who play endless repetitive tuneless notes on their harmonicas or accordions; one can almost imagine them being the more successful, paid to go away. Neutral

Seriously though, I am certain that there would have been those who could never have been described as masters of their instruments who, yet, would have blown with as much commitment and dedication as their more accomplished brethren, It strikes me as probable that their ranks must have included all levels of skill.

Paul
Back to top
Kage
Member

Offline

Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Posts: 9

PostPosted: 2011-05-15, 19:51    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing Reply with quote

Certainly, it's not ever NECESSARY to have a teacher for anything, shakuhachi or otherwise. It must be noted however, that those who eschew having a teacher, and want to gain even a meager grasp of the shakuhachi, don't have a clue what they are talking about, no matter how 'dedicated' or 'heartfelt' their efforts. Once they come into contact with someone who can knowledgeably watch what they are doing, and to show them how to do things with it, even for a few lessons, a certain light will be illuminated.
Back to top
GoStrangely
Member

Offline

Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 21
Localisation: Glasgow

PostPosted: 2011-05-15, 20:42    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing Reply with quote

Exactly the type of arrogant superior type of post that makes me feel I'm just wasting my time, I do not eschew having a teacher as I, and others have explained, we are not in the position to have a teacher, however as it would appear that I don't have a clue I may as well stick my shakuhachi on ebay and bang a couple of bricks together; or in your esteemed opinion do I need a teacher to be able to gain the illumination to be a master brick banger?
Back to top
Kiku Day
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 865
Localisation: Nr Snede, DK/London UK

PostPosted: 2011-05-15, 21:16    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing Reply with quote

Kage wrote:
Certainly, it's not ever NECESSARY to have a teacher for anything, shakuhachi or otherwise. It must be noted however, that those who eschew having a teacher, and want to gain even a meager grasp of the shakuhachi, don't have a clue what they are talking about, no matter how 'dedicated' or 'heartfelt' their efforts. Once they come into contact with someone who can knowledgeably watch what they are doing, and to show them how to do things with it, even for a few lessons, a certain light will be illuminated.










I would argue that you can only say that it will be difficult to learn and embody traditional Japanese shakuhachi music without a teacher. You can't say they have no clue about shakuhachi!

I think there is a big difference here and I have a feeling it is here we can't reach an understanding for each others' points of views!


Surely a musical system of one particular culture has to be learned somehow if you are not a part of it already by birth/upbringing and thereby learning it through ear... or you are a musical genius... 


But that still doesn't mean that it is not valid to approach the shakuhachi in a myriad of other ways. The attitude that there is only one way of doing it is exactly what can historically be seen between the ryūha in shakuhachi. Only we know the right way. 


I would rather celebrate the fact that the shakuhachi - the instrument I love so dearly - appeals to so many people around the world regardless of their chosen approaches. And I hope I can help as much as possible by being active here on the forum and try to answer questions.


Last edited by Kiku Day on 2011-05-15, 22:42; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
Visit poster’s website Skype
GoStrangely
Member

Offline

Joined: 09 Apr 2011
Posts: 21
Localisation: Glasgow

PostPosted: 2011-05-15, 21:26    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing Reply with quote

Thank you Kiku.

Paul
Back to top
Brian Tairaku Ritchie
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 635
Localisation: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

PostPosted: 2011-05-15, 23:30    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing Reply with quote

Kage, this is the "Playpen" and it's a place for beginners to discuss shakuhachi on their own terms.

On the previous forum we had people discouraging study because they thought knowledge destroys "beginner's mind", or how about the guy who said Komuso were potheads thus smoking pot makes us shakuhachi masters? That's silly and worthy of (some) ridicule. Guys like Paul and David are not tearing down the tradition. They want to engage with the instrument in their own way with the means available to them.

Probably the best thing about a forum like this is that it can provide a virtual community so that people in far flung places feel like they are part of a group. Let's be hospitable.
Back to top
Kage
Member

Offline

Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Posts: 9

PostPosted: 2011-05-16, 18:08    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing Reply with quote

I'm not talking about 'tradition'; don't actually even give a fig about tradition, in terms of learning the mechanics of playing shakuhachi. My point is that you can be faithful neither to tradition nor your own 'vision' of playing without knowledge of the mechanics, which indeed can be acquired (or not) by trial and error, but are best acquired by being shown how to do them. What I meant by 'not having a clue' is just that: it's nearly impossible to know what's going on if you persist by feeling around in the dark for it. If that seems 'inhospitable', so be it.

There is really no great mystery to shakuhachi, but it is a very idiosyncratic instrument to learn to play, thus there are several right ways to do something on it, and many wrong ways. Why waste time sorting through all the wrong ways, especially when you're not even sure whether they are wrong or not.
Back to top
Jarle Jivanmukta
Member

Offline

Joined: 22 Mar 2011
Posts: 90
Localisation: Gan, Norway

PostPosted: 2011-05-16, 19:59    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing Reply with quote

Kage wrote:
Why waste time sorting through all the wrong ways, especially when you're not even sure whether they are wrong or not.


Why NOT? :-) its a free world?

I think this forum is allready losing members.....
_________________
--------------------------
I belive in life before death.
Back to top
GalinaSG
Member

Offline

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Posts: 74
Localisation: Moscow, Russia

PostPosted: 2011-05-16, 20:03    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing Reply with quote

Kage wrote:
Why waste time sorting through all the wrong ways, especially when you're not even sure whether they are wrong or not.

Who decides about other people's way that it is right or wrong?
Back to top
Skype
Kiku Day
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 865
Localisation: Nr Snede, DK/London UK

PostPosted: 2011-05-17, 00:19    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing Reply with quote

Jarle Jivanmukta wrote:


I think this forum is allready losing members.....


I hope not... Crying or Very sad
Kage is also in his right to express his opinion - even if I don't agree with him. As long as we stay respectful to each others' opinions - and we do - don't we Smile Question Smile
Back to top
Visit poster’s website Skype
HORST XENMEISTER
Member

Offline

Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 10
Localisation: Südtirol

PostPosted: 2011-05-17, 04:21    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing Reply with quote

Grüß Gott!

GalinaSG wrote:

Who decides about other people's way?


Zen Koan: Best way is wurst way.

Vary imprortant to have teacher.

Shakuhahci ohne Teacher is like wurst ohne senf. But teacher don't need be human. Can be untermensch oder sausage.

Teach self gut.

Learn bookDVD beter.

Skipe more beter.

Study living Japanische teacher best way.

Super BEST WAY: go in wald mit wurst, brot, senf, bier und blow bambus mit pure hart.
_________________
I am Horst. I am Zen Master. Thus Horst Xenmeister.
Back to top
Jon Palombi
Member

Offline

Joined: 11 May 2011
Posts: 78
Localisation: Vermont, USA

PostPosted: 2011-05-17, 04:35    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing Reply with quote

Kiku Day wrote:
Jarle Jivanmukta wrote:


I think this forum is allready losing members.....


I hope not... Crying or Very sad
Kage is also in his right to express his opinion - even if I don't agree with him. As long as we stay respectful to each others' opinions - and we do - don't we Smile Question Smile


Actually, it's gaining new members not losing any. Without the acceptance of all opinions and to some degree, allowing for playful debate... members might indeed lose interest. Still, we need t be kind or there might indeed be an exodus of forum members. I respect the ideas of others, even when they are intrinsically different from mine. It's got to be real or it's artificial. That being said, civility must be maintained or the dreaded Forum Bully Syndrome rears it's ugly head. Kudos to all of us for understanding the fine line which defines the working balance of such ideas, being so freely expressed in open discussion.

I personally would love some hands-on instruction and the correction of many of my technical errors. This is not likely for me any time soon but I will do what I can to understand the shakuhachi from my own heart. For now, until I find a teacher, I boldly explore it's depth to the best of my ability. Now, to learn to explore what generations of traditional Japanese predecessors have gifted to this present generation of shakuhachi players, sounds like the journey of a lifetime. It's difficult in my area, so I will have to come to terms with the shakuhachi through my own trial and error. I've had plenty of practice on other bamboo flutes and question if it's not better to play shakuhachi intuitively, than not to play at all?

As I said in another thread recently, I see a parallel between the shakuhachi and the martial arts. Especially within the realm of the sword. While one could justifiably argue that one should never undertake such a practice without a qualified teacher and follow the dictates of a specific lineage, is this an absolute? To practice that art, as it was intended by masters and grandmasters, stretching back into the distant past is certainly the most direct route. Yet, this should never stop a student with a genuine passion from exploring some of the tradition through self-study. This only seems reasonable if the student has had prior experience in similar arts or posses a strong natural proclivity. Prodigies do walk amongst us. Most of us could benefit from some structural lessons. For practical reasons, the sword is more dependant on having a qualified teacher. Thankfully, the shakuhachi is a far more forgiving playmate. Smile

Obviously, this is optimum for the shakuhachi as well. Still, should one who is sincere and without direct instruction available (or one who simply doesn't wish to walk the traditional path), just give up their desire to learn and play? Especially those who are long-time musicians and are able to intuit much of what would otherwise be inaccessible through their rationale? I don't think that one can draw such harsh lines in the sand.

All roads lead to the summit, some take a round about path and others the direct path. There is enough room on the mountain for all paths. Idea
_________________
Music is the very breath of life.
Back to top
Kiku Day
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 865
Localisation: Nr Snede, DK/London UK

PostPosted: 2011-05-17, 07:49    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing Reply with quote

Grüß Gott!

Thanks for your wise words Xenmeister

Now we will all go im wald and play and wurst essen... Okay


Last edited by Kiku Day on 2011-05-17, 13:15; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
Visit poster’s website Skype
Contenu Sponsorisé






PostPosted: Today at 12:17    Post subject: my 2 cents about the whole teacher thing

Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ESS Shakuhachi Forum Forum Index -> ESS Forums -> The Playpen All times are GMT + 2 Hours
Goto page: <  1, 2, 3, 4, 510, 11, 12  >
Page 4 of 12

 
Jump to:  

Index | Create a free forum | Free support forum | Free forums directory | Report a violation | Conditions générales d'utilisation
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2017 phpBB Group