ESS Shakuhachi Forum Forum Index ESS Shakuhachi Forum
Practice, Culture and History of Japanese Bamboo Flute 尺八. A Project of the European Shakuhachi Society (ESS)
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures
Goto page: <  1, 2, 3  >
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ESS Shakuhachi Forum Forum Index -> ESS Forums -> The Museum
Previous topic :: Next topic  
Author Message
x moran
Member

Offline

Joined: 22 Mar 2011
Posts: 172
Localisation: claremont california

PostPosted: 2012-01-11, 16:15    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures Reply with quote

PublicitéSupprimer les publicités ?
I'm lookin for digital recrdings of this Nishimura Koku album



1 Aizu Kôn (Takane) 合図高音 01'35 Nishimura Koku

2 Ajikan (Itchoken) 阿字観 08'46 Nishimura Koku

3 Kokû (Don't know which version) 虚空 15'32 Nishimura Koku

4 Hi Fu Mi no Shirabe (Don't know which version) 一二三の調 04'17 Nishimura Koku

5 Reibo (Don't know which version) 霊慕 10'31 Nishimura Koku

6 Choshi (Myoan Shinpo Ryu) 調子 05'28 Nishimura Koku

7 Chôshi (Yamato)


I'm also looking for a Kyotaku 2 to 2.2 in length if anyone knows of such a beast.
_________________
Read, comment, upload: Shakuhachi Beat


Last edited by x moran on 2012-01-11, 22:15; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
Visit poster’s website
Perry Yung
Professional Member

Offline

Joined: 22 Mar 2011
Posts: 346
Localisation: New York City, UWS

PostPosted: 2012-01-11, 16:37    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures Reply with quote

Hello, I've had the pleasure of playing and working on a few of Okuda's flutes.
Kiku Day wrote:
Brian and Jeff.
I think Okuda's shakuhachi is rougher in the bore and also very very narrow at the end than what Izukawa had seen before. I also think Izukawa was very surprised about the narrowness of the end of the bore.
Yes, I found this to be the case. Here are two of his flutes I worked on last year. The one on the right is a 2.7 and the other is a 2.1. The root openings are narrow when compared to modern flutes.


Quote:
He really like a thick walled bamboo with a narrow end. The thickness of the wall also adds to the sound he wants. It is pretty much the opposite of the trends today. Obviously he plays different shakuhachi...Now that Okuda makes his shakuhachi mostly by himself they go more and more in the direction of his personal preferences, which you can say is particular....


This is the utaguchi on the 2.7 above. It is representative of all the ones that I've handled. It is also not too different from many of the oldest antique Edo period shakuhachi I have studied, certainly not a trend of today!


They are specialized instruments made for his own playing and teaching style, which is quite respectable. I had discussed this with the owners before doing any work. Since they owned the flutes and also play other styles, they needed the flutes to work differently. Before I did any work, I lit an incense and played a piece of music on each flute in respect to Okuda Sensei. (I personally liked the intimate playing experience they engender).
_________________
"A hot Dog is not an animal" - Jet Yung
Blog on shakuhachi, art and parenting - www.yungflutes.com
Back to top
Visit poster’s website
Brian Tairaku Ritchie
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 635
Localisation: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

PostPosted: 2012-01-12, 01:21    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures Reply with quote

I don't understand why the owner of those flutes would not just sell them to someone who wants that kind of flute and ask you to make new ones to their specs. Seems kind of disrespectful to change something like that.
Back to top
Brian Tairaku Ritchie
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 635
Localisation: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

PostPosted: 2012-01-12, 01:24    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures Reply with quote

x moran wrote:

I'm also looking for a Kyotaku 2 to 2.2 in length if anyone knows of such a beast.


I used to have a 2.1. It was like a decent Myoan 2.1. Except there was a bit of calligraphy.
Back to top
x moran
Member

Offline

Joined: 22 Mar 2011
Posts: 172
Localisation: claremont california

PostPosted: 2012-01-12, 02:16    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures Reply with quote

Brian Tairaku Ritchie wrote:
I don't understand why the owner of those flutes would not just sell them to someone who wants that kind of flute and ask you to make new ones to their specs. Seems kind of disrespectful to change something like that.


Generally I agree with Brian on this. If you know its a special maker, you can almost always find someone to purchase or trade for them. (Not always, though, and these days the price you can get for them may be too low to be acceptable.)

Sometimes, the bamboo just must be too irresistible for someone not to want to hang on to it for their own use and have it modified. The problem for me is that if they sell it later, they'll be selling something (significantly) less than original — yet asking for a famous maker price or value that the flute is no longer worthy of.
_________________
Read, comment, upload: Shakuhachi Beat
Back to top
Visit poster’s website
Brian Tairaku Ritchie
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 635
Localisation: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

PostPosted: 2012-01-12, 02:27    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures Reply with quote

And a lot of time you don't realise you're getting a modified flute. People should buy the flutes that suit them, not buy flutes and make it suit them. There are exceptions of course. If you know the flute has already been modified it doesn't matter. Or if the flute has clearly been made by someone who didn't know what they were doing you can fix it. But if the maker knew exactly what he was doing and you just disagree with him it's better to move the flute on to someone who is closer to the original aesthetic. These things are works of art. It's like painting your own face into a portrait of someone else.
Back to top
x moran
Member

Offline

Joined: 22 Mar 2011
Posts: 172
Localisation: claremont california

PostPosted: 2012-01-12, 02:28    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures Reply with quote

I've seen older flutes with modestly retuned Ro at the root opening: more than a few were shakuhachi by famous old makers played by some very famous modern players. Mostly these changes were made thoughtfully and based upon years of experience by the repair-person and the player.

Then again, I've seen and played famous maker and antique flutes that were ruined by being utterly reamed. (And I don't mean 'reamed' in any nice way.)
_________________
Read, comment, upload: Shakuhachi Beat
Back to top
Visit poster’s website
Brian Tairaku Ritchie
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 635
Localisation: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

PostPosted: 2012-01-12, 02:41    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures Reply with quote

Yes it is quite common to open up the ro. In that case the rest of the bore is still intact.
Back to top
Kiku Day
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 865
Localisation: Nr Snede, DK/London UK

PostPosted: 2012-01-12, 15:05    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures Reply with quote

Perry, it was interesting to hear about your work on two of Okuda's flutes. Thanks for sharing!

Okuda is a player and he makes shakuhachi for his own playing style... so yes, they are very particular. The utaguchi in your picture is the shallowest I have seen of Okuda's...

I have only one of Okuda's flutes and it is certainly not the easiest of my flutes. It's 3.15 and I have never mastered it enough to use in concerts. One day perhaps. Smile
Back to top
Visit poster’s website Skype
Perry Yung
Professional Member

Offline

Joined: 22 Mar 2011
Posts: 346
Localisation: New York City, UWS

PostPosted: 2012-01-12, 19:56    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures Reply with quote

Hello,
Brian Tairaku Ritchie wrote:
I don't understand why the owner of those flutes would not just sell them to someone who wants that kind of flute and ask you to make new ones to their specs. Seems kind of disrespectful to change something like that.

x moran wrote:
Sometimes, the bamboo just must be too irresistible for someone not to want to hang on to it for their own use and have it modified. The problem for me is that if they sell it later, they'll be selling something (significantly) less than original — yet asking for a famous maker price or value that the flute is no longer worthy of.


The owners take part in Okuda's harvesting trips and study with him once a year or more. They didn't buy these flutes thinking they would resell them one day. In fact, they are really precious about them. I even told them I didn't have to put my hanko on them, which is customary when I do this kind of work, but they insisted that I did. I doubt seriously that these flutes will ever be on the market.

As for working on other makers' instruments. I go on a case by case basis. This question came up on the BBQ a while back. I understand the issues with working on old flutes. I prefer not to. However, John Neptune addressed this back in 2003 at the Big Apple Shakuhachi Festival in New York City when an audience member asked this very question. In a nut shell, he said if the they own the flute and they have to perform on it, they have the right to do what it takes. But I'm sure he was referring to experienced players. I worked on Ralph's Kinshu flute as he needed it to do something just a little better. I was happy that I was able to do that for him.

On Okuda's flutes, I made adjustments to make them fit the owners better. For example, the 2.7 was really fat and the back needed to be brought in so that his embouchure could have closer contact with the utaguchi. Until this was done, one of the owners could hardly make a sound.

Kiku Day wrote:
Perry, it was interesting to hear about your work on two of Okuda's flutes. Thanks for sharing! The utaguchi in your picture is the shallowest I have seen of Okuda's...


My pleasure Kiku. They are quite shallow. It seems Okuda works in the present and these flutes simply spoke to him in a particular way when he had the file in hand. Interestingly enough, I have also had two Kodama Hiroyuki flutes pass through here. The utaguchi geometry was very similar, but what I found enlightening was the fact that both of their instruments were very raw, like many old Monks flutes, showing saw and file marks etc... They seem to say (to me at least) that these makers value the experience over the object.

These two makers certainly made an impact on my view of shakuhachi making.
_________________
"A hot Dog is not an animal" - Jet Yung
Blog on shakuhachi, art and parenting - www.yungflutes.com


Last edited by Perry Yung on 2012-01-13, 02:28; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
Visit poster’s website
Michael Komatsuzen
Professional Member

Offline

Joined: 22 Mar 2011
Posts: 36

PostPosted: 2012-01-12, 21:14    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing Perry. Very enlightening.
Back to top
Perry Yung
Professional Member

Offline

Joined: 22 Mar 2011
Posts: 346
Localisation: New York City, UWS

PostPosted: 2012-01-13, 02:32    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures Reply with quote

Michael Komatsuzen wrote:
Thanks for sharing Perry. Very enlightening.


Hi Michael, Yes. shakuhachi making is often just as enlightening as playing! Shocked Laughing
_________________
"A hot Dog is not an animal" - Jet Yung
Blog on shakuhachi, art and parenting - www.yungflutes.com
Back to top
Visit poster’s website
Hosei
Member

Offline

Joined: 22 Mar 2011
Posts: 7
Localisation: Steenbergen / Netherlands

PostPosted: 2012-01-13, 12:35    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures Reply with quote

As far as the kyotaku flutes. the more different ji-nashi flutes i tried ,the more i come to realize how special the kyotaku flutes are
this summer i had the opportunity at summer school to play Kodama's flutes, i have played Okuda's flutes and other ji-nashi flutes as well
(tried Fritz Nagel's flutes and did a making workshop with him )
and most ji-nashi flutes play in my humble opinion more ji-ari shakuhachi like so to say, without trying to judge it or being unrespectfull, but to give an impression one way or another of how they feel to me compared to kyotaku
kyotaku to me is more open and relaxed blowing, even then other famous ji-nashi flutes i tried
i also play kinko style ji-ari shakuhachi , so i can compare the different flutes rather well i think

i use for my playing only flutes made by Thilo Burdach, and i am coming to respect his flute making qualities more and more
also tried Agar's flutes and Nishimura's flutes

i think kyotaku has indeed a wider and more open bore compared to lots of other ji-nashi instruments, which have often a more narrow blowing node and more of the nodes inside is left
hole spacing and size are also a bit different

if people want kyotaku i recommend them to go direct to Tilo's page


http://www.tilopa.de/english.htm

i sell his too but only for my students but only in the Netherlands and everybody is very satisfied with them

hope this gives a bit of more clarity on the subject

Hans
Back to top
Visit poster’s website
Kiku Day
Moderator

Offline

Joined: 20 Mar 2011
Posts: 865
Localisation: Nr Snede, DK/London UK

PostPosted: 2012-01-13, 17:02    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures Reply with quote

Hi Hans.
I would with a friendly smile protest against a statement such as
Hosei wrote:
most ji-nashi flutes play in my humble opinion more ji-ari shakuhachi like so to say, without trying to judge it or being unrespectfull, but to give an impression one way or another of how they feel to me compared to kyotaku


However, I do understand why you say this. And I do respect your opinion, but let me try to explain why I disagree.

The thing is that the more people show interest in jinashi shakuhachi and the timbre that this version of the shakuhachi has - the more variations of jinashi develops. The development seen the past 15 years or so is that more and more people make jinashi shakuhachi jinuri-like because that is what people come from. So makers who play jinuri makes them more jinuri-like and makers who respond to today's player's needs. Therefore, in a way I agree with you – but I think if you say a jinashi shakuhachi plays more jinuri-like – then that is because you either haven’t played enough different or haven’t understood how to play them. Sorry if this sounds harsh - but I don't mean it in a harsh way.
In fact I can - coming from one particular direction of jinashi – say that I could also label kyotaku more jinuri-like. I am not doing it to contest you or to be a stupid jinashi warrior (even though people have put that label on me Smile ) For me a jinashi is relaxed playing and here I am not thinking of the jinashi with utaguchi that has the same shape as jinuri flutes (whether kinko or tozan).
As long as the utaguchi is shallow it does call for a more relaxed embouchure whether it is named kyotaku or jinashi by its maker. When there are more resistance in the bore - as in many jinashi flutes - it requires your breath to be flexible and keep on adapting to the flutes but always in a relaxed manner – and that is VERY non-jinuri-like. For me a jinashi - unless it has been constructed to be played like a jinuri - cannot play well with a strong breath. So the openness in kyotaku can remind me of jinuri flutes with the exception that it has a shallow utaguchi because of its less resistance in the bore and can be played with a strong breath – although I think that would be a pity as the kyotaku playing style is a soft open playing style as you say. But if you made a jinuri player play kyotaku he/she would probably blast in a strong jinuri breath into it and it would work better than on a jinashi full of nodes…
Therefore, I think it is impossible to say that jinashi plays more jinuri-like. It really depends on the maker AND the player. And that is the same with kyotaku. I have played Tilo's, Agar's and Nishimura's and they are very different - in particularly does Tilo's flutes differ in my opinion from the two others' flutes.... but again that is hard to say as I have not played all of their flutes….
Many of our flutes are in the grey zone – I think. Each with their uniqueness even though they may belong to a particular style…
Okay Okay Okay to all our little differences!
Back to top
Visit poster’s website Skype
Hosei
Member

Offline

Joined: 22 Mar 2011
Posts: 7
Localisation: Steenbergen / Netherlands

PostPosted: 2012-01-13, 19:46    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures Reply with quote

Hi Kiku

I was already afraid of being misunderstood, but did not know exactly how to say what i wanted to say, that's why i emphasised to me
when a ji-ari player tries to play a kyotaku from me ( is Tilo 's ) he always blows too strong and as a result the flute does not give its sound
just some harsh tones
but kyotaku needs a very humble, soft loving and tender way of blowing, soft lips, almost like just breathing out
and then sound seems to come easy
the softer you blow, the louder and fuller the sound gets

the other ji-nashi flutes i played was just on summerschools and workshops etc, so it can be very well that i did not have enough time to form an opinion
you are more of an expert on that , i know

hope you get the point
no way of attacking any of my ji-nashi friends, i hate putting statements against each other and then long discussions
just I try to give some additional material to think about
just trying to make things clear to people who want to know about kyotaku

one of my goals is to make kyotaku known and available to everybody who thinks it can offer him / her something

and indeed Tilo's flutes are different from the other ones, but i love them

it is not so easy to explain things in words sometimes concerning things you should try and hear

hope this helps a bit ?????????


Hans
Back to top
Visit poster’s website
Contenu Sponsorisé






PostPosted: Today at 12:21    Post subject: Nishimura Koku - Kyotaku pictures

Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ESS Shakuhachi Forum Forum Index -> ESS Forums -> The Museum All times are GMT + 2 Hours
Goto page: <  1, 2, 3  >
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  

Index | Create a free forum | Free support forum | Free forums directory | Report a violation | Conditions générales d'utilisation
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2017 phpBB Group