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Cleaner sound and Urushi
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Perry Yung
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PostPosted: 2012-03-14, 02:26    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi Reply with quote

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Hi All, I was refurbishing this old flute.



The finger holes were caked with years of grim.



I had to loosen it up with a Shish Kabob skewer.



The thing I love about Urushi is that it polishes nicely. I think the flute sounds a little "cleaner" now :)

- Perry
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Last edited by Perry Yung on 2012-03-16, 15:16; edited 1 time in total
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Kiku Day
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PostPosted: 2012-03-14, 07:21    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi Reply with quote

Nice!
Although I have really developed a hate-relationship with new urushi, I must admit it is a very cool material!
Thanks for sharing a story from your workshop!
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Perry Yung
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PostPosted: 2012-03-14, 16:01    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi Reply with quote

Kiku Day wrote:
Nice!
Although I have really developed a hate-relationship with new urushi, I must admit it is a very cool material!
Thanks for sharing a story from your workshop!


Kiku, Do you know if you are more susceptible to a particular kind of urushi? I have noticed that those who are, are more likely to get a rash from Honshu (Red) than Shuai (translucent brown). In my experience, about 5 percent or less will get a rash from Honshu after having cured for over two weeks. And so far none from Shuai (in my experience).

Anyone else care to share your experience with cured urushi?
- Perry
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x moran
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PostPosted: 2012-03-15, 23:23    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi Reply with quote

Perry Yung wrote:

Anyone else care to share your experience with cured urushi?


I drink it for breakfast.

'Specially that dull, black, hand-rubbed stuff. No cream.
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Toby
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PostPosted: 2012-03-16, 03:53    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi Reply with quote

Actually, ingesting a very small amount can help desensitize you. The Native Americans used to chew leaves of poison oak to keep themselves from developing contact dermatitis from it. I tried a bit of the pure stuff (I wouldn't suggest the red or black). It created a momentary burning sensation in my mouth, but nothing else.
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Kiku Day
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PostPosted: 2012-03-16, 08:07    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi Reply with quote

Perry Yung wrote:


Kiku, Do you know if you are more susceptible to a particular kind of urushi? I have noticed that those who are, are more likely to get a rash from Honshu (Red) than Shuai (translucent brown). In my experience, about 5 percent or less will get a rash from Honshu after having cured for over two weeks. And so far none from Shuai (in my experience).


I have only tried to get a rash from Shuai.... I have never been in contact with fresh Honshu urushi. But it all started when I was on fieldwork and had to look into many many flutes, so the rash began with my right eye (it wasn't pretty)! Smile
Do I break your observations? Neutral

Toby wrote:
Actually, ingesting a very small amount can help desensitize you. The Native Americans used to chew leaves of poison oak to keep themselves from developing contact dermatitis from it. I tried a bit of the pure stuff (I wouldn't suggest the red or black). It created a momentary burning sensation in my mouth, but nothing else.


Sounds like a good idea if that is really possible.... but I think I will just stay away from it. Wink
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Perry Yung
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PostPosted: 2012-03-16, 15:10    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi Reply with quote

Kiku Day wrote:
Perry Yung wrote:


Kiku, Do you know if you are more susceptible to a particular kind of urushi? I have noticed that those who are, are more likely to get a rash from Honshu (Red) than Shuai (translucent brown). In my experience, about 5 percent or less will get a rash from Honshu after having cured for over two weeks. And so far none from Shuai (in my experience).


I have only tried to get a rash from Shuai.... I have never been in contact with fresh Honshu urushi. But it all started when I was on fieldwork and had to look into many many flutes, so the rash began with my right eye (it wasn't pretty)! Smile
Do I break your observations? Neutral


There's always gotta be one! Sad Actually, I received one report over the years where the player did not get the rash on the lips but experienced slightly puffy eyes. It was from Honshu though. I told her to wash the bore with dish washing liquid and that rectified the situation.

Toby wrote:
Actually, ingesting a very small amount can help desensitize you. The Native Americans used to chew leaves of poison oak to keep themselves from developing contact dermatitis from it. I tried a bit of the pure stuff (I wouldn't suggest the red or black). It created a momentary burning sensation in my mouth, but nothing else.


Thanks Toby, so glad you are able to "talk" about that experience. Smile Kinya once told me that makers who worked in Chikusen Tamai's shop also ate a little urushi to desensitize themselves. The idea of exposure leading to desensitivity goes against what some people think about allergies but is certainly helpful to know that human beings are not cut and dry! I was told by an urushi artist that some Korean people eat the leaves of the Urushi Lacquer Tree (Not sure why, any Koreans out there able to verify this?). From my own experience I can say that I used to get the rash now and then on my arms or the back of my hands when using it out of the tube, but I haven't gotten it in many years.

Those interested in first hand, personal experiences from the urushi rash can read the thread on the BBQ Shakuhachi Forum:

http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=4213

x moran wrote:

I drink it for breakfast.


I take mine black, no sugar. Wink
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Jeff Cairns
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PostPosted: 2012-03-17, 05:21    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi Reply with quote

I've found that when working on old flutes with black 木urushi in the bore, even the long dried powder will affect me usually on the hands. Even two weeks after curing isn't safe for me. But my teacher
also said to me when I first tried to work with urushi that I should eat a little to help my body to become used to it. I thought he was crazy. Maybe I should reconsider.
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Kiku Day
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PostPosted: 2012-03-17, 07:29    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi Reply with quote

Jeff, if you try and it works for you - I'll do it as well! Smile
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Jeff Cairns
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PostPosted: 2012-03-17, 14:55    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi Reply with quote

Thank you Kiku. I admire your supportive nature. Laughing Very Happy Neutral
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Perry Yung
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PostPosted: 2012-03-17, 17:29    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi Reply with quote

Jeff Cairns wrote:
But my teacher
also said to me when I first tried to work with urushi that I should eat a little to help my body to become used to it. I thought he was crazy. Maybe I should reconsider.

Kiku Day wrote:
Jeff, if you try and it works for you - I'll do it as well! :)

Anyone in New York City want to try? My place. I'll have a chaser for you!
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Jon Kypros
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PostPosted: 2012-05-03, 16:16    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi Reply with quote

Just wanted to voice a word of caution, all joking here aside, that ingesting the leaves or lacquer can actually cause an internal rash and in severe cases swelling of the airway and death. Even if a sever reaction resulting in death is rare it is certainly not worth the risk!

From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicodendron_radicans

"If poison ivy is burned and the smoke then inhaled, this rash will appear on the lining of the lungs, causing extreme pain and possibly fatal respiratory difficulty.[18] If poison ivy is eaten, the mucus lining of the mouth and digestive tract can be damaged."

I would also caution people about breathing in any fumes from urushi lacquer. Sensitivity or immunity changes with age as noted below under "What about immunity?" from poison-ivy.org

About gaining or loosing immunity from poison-ivy.org facts:

"What about immunity?

Some people appear to be immune, others become immune. HOWEVER, you can gain or lose immunity, so to assume you can't get it if you never have before is foolish. People change as they age. I would never assume that I was immune at any time no matter what my past experience was. "
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Last edited by Jon Kypros on 2012-05-04, 17:40; edited 2 times in total
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Brian Tairaku Ritchie
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PostPosted: 2012-05-04, 01:10    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi Reply with quote

Does urushi have any actual benefits (that you can hear) over any other bore lining?
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Perry Yung
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PostPosted: 2012-05-04, 13:56    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi Reply with quote

Brian Tairaku Ritchie wrote:
Does urushi have any actual benefits (that you can hear) over any other bore lining?


In general any hard, smooth and shiney surface in a bore will produce the same effect.
But as a material, it cures super thin. That allows me to do very very fine adjustments on Jiari flutes. Synthetic lacquers that I have used do not cure thin enough for these kinds of adjustments. That's when I hear the difference.
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Jon Kypros
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PostPosted: 2012-05-05, 17:04    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi Reply with quote

PS for anyone working with urushi I thought I'd post some safety gear. Sort of like lab class when you hoped the person you had a crush on didn't see you in those goggles and apron Wink

All gear should be designated to urushi only as urushi can stay active on inanimate object "forever".

From poison-ivy.org- "The oil from poison ivy is extremely stable and will stay potent - essentially forever. You can get a rash from clothing or tools that have the oil from last summer, or even from many years back. So if you don't remove the oil by washing, using alcohol to dissolve it, or by just hosing off with a hard spray from a hose - assume it will stay forever."

1. To protect from fumes you'll need an OSHA approved organic gas & vapor respirator.



2. At least some form of eye protection just in case any urushi gets flung. A face screen wouldn't necessarily be going too far. This will not protect against the fumes.



3. Disposable gloves.

4. Long sleeves, pants thick enough to protect skin from a soak through.

5. A designated bin to keep non-washable urushi gear/materials.

Always remember that urushiol contact dermatitis is a delayed reaction that can take as much as two days to appear.
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PostPosted: Today at 13:58    Post subject: Cleaner sound and Urushi

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