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Half tones in kyorei
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Rasmus Fugl
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PostPosted: 2012-10-01, 19:39    Post subject: Half tones in kyorei Reply with quote

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Hello everyone.

I just have a quick question. In kyorei how do you play that little 'tsu' with a line across that comes right before the first 'ro'? In generel how do you even play notes which have lines across them? I know they're supposed to indicate half-tones or semi-tones or something similar, but I still haven't figured out how to play one correctly. Is it done by covering half the hole?

Thank you very much!
Rasmus


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Kiku Day
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PostPosted: 2012-10-01, 22:18    Post subject: Half tones in kyorei Reply with quote

Tsu no meri it is.
Hole one - that is the lowest hole - is partially open, but really only a little open.
Then remember to be in deep meri position where your chin is withdrawn towards the chest.
The pitch should be - if you play on a flute tuned to D - a little flat of Eb.

Good luck! Razz
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Jam
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PostPosted: 2012-10-01, 23:34    Post subject: Half tones in kyorei Reply with quote

It is astounding the number of people out there who are teaching themselves shakuhachi. I'm really in awe of how you could do that yet teach yourself traditional pieces, it's all well and good if you want to make "world music" but trying to learn traditional pieces without a teacher must be incredibly frustrating at times.

Fair play to you mate.
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Brian Tairaku Ritchie
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PostPosted: 2012-10-01, 23:40    Post subject: Half tones in kyorei Reply with quote

Kiku Day wrote:
Tsu no meri it is.
Hole one - that is the lowest hole - is partially open, but really only a little open.
Then remember to be in deep meri position where your chin is withdrawn towards the chest.
The pitch should be - if you play on a flute tuned to D - a little flat of Eb.

Good luck! Razz


Yeah or some people play it without any partial holing and the pitch is higher. Or the same. Lots of choices to make when playing honkyoku.
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Paul Gardner
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PostPosted: 2012-10-02, 00:59    Post subject: Half tones in kyorei Reply with quote

I had my first lesson with Kiku last month (wonderful time. Looking forward to my next lesson Very Happy ) and we started to look at this piece.
I would say that the fixing of your Ro is of great importance. If it is too flat it will make Tsu meri a lot harder to gauge. Also with Ro secured in your head you hav a reference point from which you can judge the other notes.
There are so many subtleties within Honkyoku, subtleties which are not evident in a written score and that are as varied as the number of recordings that you may hear.
Tsu meri requires a very subtle breath, on my flute at least, and a partial opening of hole one as Kiku says. The amount of open hole is dependent upon what's going on at the top end of the flute with your mouth position and breath. You have to 'discover' your Tsu meri on your flute and in your mind.
I'm still trying to get a nice Tsu meri without using too much breath. I find myself using too much breath and then not having enough air for the next two Ro! But that is what practice is all about.
These are amazing pieces of music. With the shakuhachi itself as your teacher, and a teacher as your guide you will discover wonderful things indeed.
I've only just began my journey with the shakuhachi but I do know that the input from a teacher, however infrequent the lessons, will carry you forwards to a better understanding of your own goals with this instrument and its music.

Keep at it! Okay
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Jeff Cairns
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PostPosted: 2012-10-02, 01:04    Post subject: Half tones in kyorei Reply with quote

Rasmus, there are plenty of teachers around who you can access over skype for a relatively cheap price. Pictures speak a thousand words and the visual/audio input might just avoid the need to re-invent the wheel. I think there might be a list somewhere here that gives you the addresses of those teachers. As Brian pointed out, there are in fact many ways to do what you describe and each depends on the tradition you are following. Unless you intend to try to become an all-around player, it might be good to lock yourself into one tradition right now. All the best.
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Rasmus Fugl
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PostPosted: 2012-10-02, 10:57    Post subject: Half tones in kyorei Reply with quote

Kiku Day wrote:
Tsu no meri it is.
Hole one - that is the lowest hole - is partially open, but really only a little open.
Then remember to be in deep meri position where your chin is withdrawn towards the chest.
The pitch should be - if you play on a flute tuned to D - a little flat of Eb.

Good luck! Razz


Thank you, Kiku! I will try it out later when I get home from school. In any case you'll show me how to do it on the 27th. I hope I haven't adopted too many errors from continuing with kyorei that need to be dropped Wink

By the way Kiku, could you perhaps send me that recording of yours of kyorei so that I can listen to it and correct my own mistakes?

Jam wrote:
It is astounding the number of people out there who are teaching themselves shakuhachi. I'm really in awe of how you could do that yet teach yourself traditional pieces, it's all well and good if you want to make "world music" but trying to learn traditional pieces without a teacher must be incredibly frustrating at times.

Fair play to you mate.


To be fair, Kiku is my teacher. It's just that intervals between lessons are long since she doesn't live in Copenhagen where I'm from but only comes to visit once or twice a month, and then I get these 'itches' and I just have to continue from where we left off Twisted Evil . But thank you for your encouraging words nonetheless!

Jeff Cairns wrote:
Rasmus, there are plenty of teachers around who you can access over skype for a relatively cheap price. Pictures speak a thousand words and the visual/audio input might just avoid the need to re-invent the wheel. I think there might be a list somewhere here that gives you the addresses of those teachers. As Brian pointed out, there are in fact many ways to do what you describe and each depends on the tradition you are following. Unless you intend to try to become an all-around player, it might be good to lock yourself into one tradition right now. All the best.


And I would have bought Skype lessons without hesitating if I did not have a teacher already. But thank you for your advice, Jeff. I'm sure there are a lot of other people who would like to have a look at that list! Smile
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Jarle Jivanmukta
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PostPosted: 2012-10-02, 11:54    Post subject: Half tones in kyorei Reply with quote

I took up shakuhachi 2.5 yrs ago.
To stick to one teacher is a good thing imo, good choice :-)

Different schools and teachers will sometimes have very different opinions/strategies for teaching students, you will get very confusing practice if you ask various people tp advice you. I don't know if this is a result about various ways to Rome or maybe the target actually is completely different cities..;-)

Some parameters where I have seen completely different opinions for how the beginners should practice:

tighten lips vs soften lips
blow hard vs blow soft
get correct pitch first vs play on, pitch will come later
sideways movement to sharpen tone vs sideways movement to lower pitch
enjoy vs struggle :-)
payalot vs paymuchless ;-)
etc etc

The good thing about posting questions is that it keeps the forum alive, and that is a very good thing.
And there are very good players/teachers that takes time to reply, its informative just to see what the different tips are - from different schools (or just different teachers).
Hope to hear more from you Rasmus,
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Kiku Day
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PostPosted: 2012-10-03, 11:21    Post subject: Half tones in kyorei Reply with quote

Rasmus, a recording is on its way to your inbox through cyberspace... Mr. Green
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Rasmus Fugl
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PostPosted: 2012-10-13, 15:19    Post subject: Half tones in kyorei Reply with quote

Kiku Day wrote:
Rasmus, a recording is on its way to your inbox through cyberspace... Mr. Green


Excellent, thank you. I got the recording now! Very Happy
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Karmajampa
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PostPosted: 2012-12-28, 00:51    Post subject: Half tones in kyorei Reply with quote

Kiku Day wrote:
Tsu no meri it is.
Hole one - that is the lowest hole - is partially open, but really only a little open.
Then remember to be in deep meri position where your chin is withdrawn towards the chest.
The pitch should be - if you play on a flute tuned to D - a little flat of Eb.

Good luck! Razz


Kiku, is tsu no meri the same as tsu dai meri ?

Kel.
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Kiku Day
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PostPosted: 2012-12-28, 11:33    Post subject: Half tones in kyorei Reply with quote

Hi Kel

Mmmm.....
There are a minor third in between the pitch of ro (D in the case of a 1.8) and tsu (F in the case of a 1.8).
So there are two half tones in between ro and tsu - if we are concerned Western pitch (wich we very often are when talking about shakuhachi or Japanese music in general - but of course not always).

The equivalent of E is called "tsu no chū meri" and the Eb (E flat) is called "tsu no meri" in basically all traditions I have seen. So the pitch "tsu no dai meri" I would think is "tsu no meri" bent down to the pitch of ro (D).

However, I have seen on some fingering charts or old books "tsu no meri" being described as "tsu no ōmeri". But I think that was before it all settled down to the three 3 bent tsu: "tsu no dai meri", "tsu no meri" and "tsu no chū meri".

I hope this helps! I also hope I have left enough room for the exception that proves the rule! Smile
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Karmajampa
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PostPosted: 2012-12-28, 11:48    Post subject: Half tones in kyorei Reply with quote

OK, thank you,
Some pedantics if you would please.
How do you translate 'Dai', 'No', and 'chu' ?
The "Dai Kan" octave ?

Kel.
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Jeff Cairns
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PostPosted: 2012-12-28, 12:32    Post subject: Half tones in kyorei Reply with quote

Dai = biggest
no = of
chu = middle
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Karmajampa
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PostPosted: 2012-12-28, 13:19    Post subject: Half tones in kyorei Reply with quote

Do we have Re No Chu Meri, Chi No Chu Meri etc. or are the Western semi-tone intervals adhered to ?
That is, as well as Re No Meri, chi No Meri etc.

Kel.
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